Talk:Swahili language

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A requester in ticket:2023082210010407 has asked for changes, that there are 200 million speakers of this language per this refernce: https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000379702. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I concur, that is a far more recent reference than the one cited in the article. I noticed that it was updated but changed back by @Cookiemonster1618. @Cookiemonster1618 any particular reason why? Thuralt (talk) 07:44, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

it was changed because it's an over estimate and Ethnologue source is being used because first off there is not a large number of second language speakers of Swahili in the DRC so it wouldn't be possible for there to be 200 million speakers of Swahili also Ethnologue estimate of second language speakers is accurate because not all the inhabitants of these countries speak swahili as a first or second language. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't seem likely that it's an over estimation. Tanzania alone has a population of over 61 million and 61.4% (over 37 million) of Tanzanians speak Swahili as a first language. Kenya, in 2019, had a population of over 47 million and 27.1% (over 12 million) of Kenyans speak Swahili as a first language. Uganda has approx. 34 million Swahili speakers. And this is not counting Burundi, DRC, Mozambique etc.

The Ethnologue source simply isn't accurate Thuralt (talk) 14:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Uganda doesnt have 34 million speakers your estimate is not accurate in fact because you have no source to cite it. Since Ethnologue takes its data from census and other data provided by its users its more reliable. The Ethnologue estimation will be used for now. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 16:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

According to Ethnologue Uganda has 4.3 million second language swahili speakers and only 4,340 first language speakers. So where did you get your figure of 34 million speakers of Swahili in Uganda from? Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 16:32, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

According to Ethnologue's source from the 2019 census there were only 111,000 first language speakers of Swahili in Kenya and 19 million second language speakers so where did you get your figure of 12 million from? Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 16:34, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

All figures I've cited are referenced in my reply from recent reliable sources (Kenya National Bureau of Statistics, Tanzania National Bureau of Statistics, Statistica, USAID).

Also, the UNESCO source cited by @Xaosflux above is recent and reliable and also gives the overall number of speakers at 200 million Thuralt (talk) 17:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Xaosflux care to weigh in? I've found this other BBC source. I'm inclined to make a good faith revert of Cookiemonster1618's edit to reflect these other more recent sources but I would prefer some level of consensus before I do. Thuralt (talk) 12:28, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not really interested in this topic, only was here to provide information from the VRT request in passing. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:27, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Thuralt I just came across this. I seriously doubt 200,000,000 is an accurate estimate. It seems to be a maximalist claim similar to claims that English has 2 billion speakers. If you add up anyone who might have studied any amount of Swahili, maybe you get 200 million, but as an accurate estimate of L1+L2 speakers, no. The UNESCO document you've linked is not an academic study and gives no sources to document its claim as to the number of speakers, so it should not be used. Ethnologue is IMO much more reliable. Benwing (talk) 03:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

You should be aware that there's a strong impulse on the part of speakers and advocates for a given language to inflate speaker numbers. Academically-oriented sources are very important for this reason. Benwing (talk) 03:46, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Benwing There are important RS sources that contradict the Ethnologue numbers. If speakers (primary and overall) from just three countries alone (see the other sources above but happy to recite) add up to 83 million (I should add that even this number is likely an underestimation since the Kenya census was conducted over four years ago and the estimates for Kenya and Tanzania are just for primary speakers alone) without including speakers from countries such as Burundi, DRC, Mozambique, Somalia etc then the >200 million number becomes likely (perhaps even evident).

I'll also look for more RS sources on the number of speakers in the other Eastern Africa countries and L2 speakers in Kenya and Tanzania. Thuralt (talk) 05:10, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Thuralt I don't have time to argue with someone who sounds rather biased but I will just point out you're essentially conducting OR by trying to add up the speakers from countries like Burundu, DRC, etc. where Swahili isn't widely spoken. I have been to Kenya and quite a lot of people there don't speak Swahili (Tanzania is different, everyone speaks Swahili as it's the national language, whereas de facto English functions in this role in Kenya). I also have a Ph.D. in linguistics and no axe to grind here. The UNESCO source you provided is not a reliable source for this stuff as its claim isn't backed up by any citations. You need to find an actual reliable source that says 200+ million L2 speakers (since the number of L1 speakers is ~ 15,000,000) and not try to add stuff up yourself by picking and choosing sources. Ethnologue is a reliable source that provides such an aggregate, and the fact that you have no interest in even presenting differing views in the lede about speakers but have only chosen the maximalist claim shows your bias. Benwing (talk) 08:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Benwing Just stop. If you "don't want to waste your time" engaging, that's fine. And if you disagree with my point of view, that's fine too. But don't ascribe bias just because I disagree with you. You don't know me anymore than I know you. So stop.

But just in case you still do want to engage on the merits, I'm happy to have your perspective; I just don't agree with it for reasons I've stated (and referenced) above but I'll add to here; BBC, Harvard, SOAS, University of London, The East African and Citizen newspapers all quote Swahili speakers at atleast 200 million. The fact is, there is a preponderance of reliable sources that contradict the Ethnologue source, which is why I don't consider it having an accurate estimate of Swahili speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

@Cookiemonster1618, Benwing, Benwing2, and Thuralt: Hi, all. I have rewritten the section following this WP:RSN discussion, to incorporate more reliable sources and note the general range of figures, since in general when reliable sources give a range of figures we should acknowledge that and not cherry-pick a figure, particularly from one extreme of the range. -sche (talk) 01:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi -sche fine with that. Seems reasonable. I, however, don't seem to understand why 150 million has been stated as the highest extremum, when the Harvard African Language Program, The SOAS (University of London) Swahili programme and BBC all quote figures starting at 200 million.

I should add that the BBC page indicates that it was written/updated in February 2022 and the SOAS Swahili Programme page indicates that it was written/updated in June 2023. Thuralt (talk) 02:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The body (Swahili_language#Overview) gives the full range, "Estimates [...] vary widely, from as low as 50 million to as high as 200 million, but generally range from 60 million to 150 million." For the summary in the lead of where the estimates "generally rang[e]", I looked at where most of the higher-quality estimates fall, and what the one reference that acknowledges estimates vary gives as the range: ~60 to 150. -sche (talk) 03:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

-sche I would contend that Harvard and the University of London (maybe even the BBC) are equally credible RS sources. And also for consistency, it would seem reasonable to put the full range throughout the article instead of picking a single range from one source. Thuralt (talk) 03:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Contradictory Ethnologue Numbers

First of all, the infobox for this article says the numbers are for (2019-2023), yet each source says 2024 for its date.

Secondly, the L1 number here is 5.3, while https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers lists 16 million for L1, yet this article combines multiple varieties of Swahili, so should be higher. Both articles give Ethnologue as their source. Please fix this contradiction. 84.78.248.230 (talk) 13:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The figure of 16 million first language speakers is from the 26th edition for 2023, unless there's another cited source. The recent population estimates were taken from various sources and used in Ethnologue, as you might be aware that Ethnologue uses different sources and methodologies to provide speaker populations. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 05:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Orthography section needs work

The orthography section currently discusses the disused Arabic orthography in far greater detail than is needed for this page. Conversely, it barely discusses the Latin orthography at all. Readers are given no indication what sounds the Latin letters represent. It's just noted that digraphs exist, but not what they are used for.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)