Talk:Kshatriya

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2022

Hey editor! Just wanted to see if you can change the photo of this page to a more of an actual Indian Warrior instead of a cartoon. It would be much appreciated as people would be able to understand the significance of kshatriyas better with an actual decent photograph. Jai Hind Dharmsanrakshak (talk) 13:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Recoil (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

change cover page picture from cartoon to actual indian kshatriya 132.147.113.197 (talk) 10:03, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 March 2023

I would like to add a new section on how the Khatri caste is related to the Kshatriyas. I think that this would be a helpful addition to the article. Usingh0663 (talk) 14:14, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I will be adding a section as so

Heading: Khatris and Kshatriyas

Text: According to Shyamasundara Dasa's abdasgara Lexicon, the Hindi word khatri derives from the Sanskrit word kshatriya. Philologists, according to B. N. Puri, agree that the terms "Khatri" and "Kshatriya" are synonymous. According to the grammarian Vararuchi, the Sanskrit conjunct Ksha (क्ष) becomes the Prakrit Kha (ख). This change is accepted not only in Prakrit, but in all Indian vernaculars derived from it, including Gujarati, Urdu, Gurumukhi, and Persian. The shift from Kshatriya to Khatri is consistent with Prakrit and Hindi usage. Scholars R. G. Bhandarkar and Shapurji Edulji both testify to this. According to historians W. H. McLeod and Louis Fenech, Khatri is a Punjabi word for Kshatriya. A. R. Desai and Peter Hardy both agree that Khatri is derived from Kshatriya. Despite the etymology, Hardy says that Khatri is "a mercantile class" and Desai says the Khatris were "traditionally tradesmen and government officials". According to Dr. Dharamvir Bharati, Kshatriya is pronounced Khatri in Punjabi. "Khatri appears to be unquestionably a Prakritised form of the Sanskrit word Kshatriya," write Dr. GS Mansukhani and RC Dogra. According to philologist Ralph Lilley Turner, the Punjabi word "khattrī", meaning "warrior", derives from Sanskrit "kṣatriya", whereas the Gujarati word "khātrī", meaning "a caste of Hindu weavers", derives from Sanskrit "kṣattr̥", meaning "carver, distributor".

Potential references:

Dasa, Syamasundara (1965–1975). "Hindi sabdasagara". dsal.uchicago.edu. Retrieved 19 November 2020.

Puri, Baij Nath (1988). The Khatris, a Socio-cultural Study. M.N. Publishers and Distributors. pp. 7–8.

Fenech, Louis E.; McLeod, W. H. (11 June 2014). Historical Dictionary of Sikhism. Rowman & Littlefield. ISBN 978-1-4422-3601-1.

Desai, A. R. (1975). State and Society in India. Popular Prakashan. pp. 539–540. ISBN 978-81-7154-013-6. Nanak was probably of a khatri jati, traditionally tradesmen and government officials in the Punjab, though the name Khatri is from the word Kshatriya. The nine Sikh gurus who came after him were certainly Khatris

Hardy; Hardy, Thomas (7 December 1972). The Muslims of British India. CUP Archive. p. 279. ISBN 978-0-521-09783-3.

Turner, Ralph Lilley (1985). A Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages. School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. p. 189.

Dalit Chintan ka Vikas Abhishapt Chintan se Itihas (in Hindi). Vani Prakashan. p. 243. Usingh0663 (talk) 14:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

|answered= please view the response above. Usingh0663 (talk) 15:09, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

This content would fit better on Khatri. This page is for the Kshatriya varna as a whole. Chariotrider555 (talk) 19:04, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Alright. Thanks for the feedback. Usingh0663 (talk) 12:32, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Kshatriya does not mean king, Kshatriya is a religious caste. Everyone can become a king! That's why don't associate Kshatriya jati with the word Rajanya

Sanatan dharm 103.206.177.82 (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 November 2023

Early Rigvedic tribal monarchy section: “The administrative machinery in the Vedic India was headed by a tribal king called Rajan whose position may or may not have been hereditary.”

In my opinion “tribal king called Rajan” makes it sound as though it was simply one guy named Rajan, not a title. I suggest this be changed to:

“tribal king called a Rajan” or “tribal king called the Rajan”.

Thank you 2A00:23C6:95CE:B401:609A:DB6:DAB2:FDEC (talk) 15:02, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done Tollens (talk) 01:07, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Removing Page protection

• Kshatriya (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Reason: As vandalism has been stopped, the page no longer requires protection. Nevertheless, it lacks enough information and facts about Kshatriyas. At present, there is a scarcity of content on this subject. Removing the page protection would allow editors to add more useful information. Alex Cupper (talk) 02:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Alugunuru Balaraju Adduri Addala Addepalli Ayyapuraju Bellamkonda Alluri Byrraju Ayanampudi Anantharaju Chiruvella Angaraju Bhupathiraju Chitraju Anjiraju Eedarapalli Balaraju Champati Dintakurthi Balaraju Gorinta Bejawada Chekuri (Sekuri) Ede Bayalraju Ganamukkala Gobburi Bhetalam Chintalapati Inampudi Betharaju Kanumuri Byrraju Dandu Jampana (Varnata) Bogaraju Kakkera Buddharaju Dantuluri (Thantaluri) Kalidindi Buttamraju Katari Chamarthi Dasaraju Kundaraju Chamarthi Kadimella Dhenuvakonda Datla (Thatla) Mudunuri Chejerila Lakamraju Dendukuri Gadiraju Muthundi (Mudundi) Chennapaya Mandapati Erraguntala Gandraju Saripalli Chennamraju Mungara Gadiraju Gokaraju Vemulavada Chevooru Namburi Ganapathiraju Gottumukkala Vemulamanda Chinnanagannagari Pathapati Godavarthi Guntimadugu Yamanamanda Chinnanarasiahgari Saidu Gurjala Gunturi Chokkaraju Sayyaparaju Gundraju Jampana (Kota) Cibyala Sirivella Immadiraju (Immalaraju) Kallepalli Daasanapu Solaraju Indukuri (Indukoori) Kammela Dakshiraju Solanki Isukapalli Kankipati Dalavayi Uppalapati Kakarlapudi Kanteti Gadi Mullapati Kutcherlapati Kasi Gouripuram Manthena (Manthana) Kopperla Govindarajulu Mulagapati Kokkerlapati Gundlapalli Muppalla Konduri Hasthi Mungapati Koppella Inkula Nadimpalli Kothapalli Jagadaabhi Nagaraju Kunaparaju Kanchiraju Pusapati (Poosapadi) Kamparaju Katri Pericherla (Pericholi) Nallaparaju Kocherla Pinnamaraju Pakalapati (Pagalapati) Konduru Potturi Patsamatla (Patchamatla) Lingaraju Rajasagi Penumatsa (Penumathsa) Medidaraju Sagi Penmatsa, Penmetsa Nandyala Sakhineti Pusampudi Nimmaraju Sagiraju Rudraraju Padmaraju Samantapudi Sagiraju Patarapalli Siravuri Sujjuri Peddiraju Vadapalli Thotakura Penugonda Vatsavai (Vathsvaya) Thirumalaraju Posaladeevi Valivarthi Uddaraju/Vuddharaju Raghava Vegesana (Vegesina) Vadlamudi Rayadurgam Vetikuri Vanapala Reddicherla Penmatsa Vegiraju Sangaraju Pakalapati Vempalli Solaraju Siruvuri (Siroovuri) Vetukuri Tipparaju

Yallamraju Ummalaraju

Nandimandalam Valavarthi

Yarakaraju Vanipanta

Aarveti Vankeraju

Saluva Veligandla

My edits

@LukeEmily: Can you describe here why are you reverting reliably sourced content [1]? Your edit summaries are not coherent enough. Dympies (talk) 03:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dympies:, Just as some other OBC communities have tried Sanskritisation to claim Kshatriya status, Rajputs have tried Rajputisation. I have read the Sanksrit version of Sudrakamalakara in my studies of Sanksritisation and Rajputs are explicitly asked to follow Shudra customs. No hindu scripture redefines them as something else. Are Rajputs universally accepted Kshatriyas now? Do ALL modern scholars, scriptures, other communities currently agree? Answer is NO. If they were, the word "claim" would not have been used in any source - most do use the word claim. Do you say {any human name here} claims to be a human? Secondly, even if there is small community called abc in some town xyz is accepted as Kshatriyas , adding it to this page would also need addition of opposing views, origin etc. @Ekdalian:, who might be able to explain better as to why we don't add varna infobox for any non-Brahmin community. Adding Rajputs, would not only be factually wrong but also open a can of worms, we will have to include shudra origin too. Even the Rajput claim of some communities is disputed let alone varna. There are so many examples. Did the rajputs who were mostly illiterate study vedas as per kshatriya duties ? Also, many other communities that claim Kshatriyahood and have thread ceremonies will need to be added. Lets not open the can of worms for a relatively stable page.LukeEmily (talk) 03:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

You have been told this before that we cannot bother what you have read or if you are a history graduate, your OR is of zero value to us. First see, what the content says : Though many communities claimed Kshatriya status, the Rajputs were most successful in attaining it." This is supported by modern scholars. Show me if any good sources contradict it. As far as Kshatriya status is concerned, if you know any other community as close as Rajputs, do let us know. What my content implies is that unlike the other communities who were either unsuccessful or half-successful, Rajputs were most successful in claiming Kshatriya status. Some modern scholars also write that they are as successful as being regarded as very epitome of Kshatriyas in modern era. Leaving the "modern era" section empty doesn't make any sense at all. Rajputs' origins may be diverse but that isn't the topic here, it is better be discussed on Rajput page. Courtesy ping to Joshua Jonathan, the long term editor of this article. Dympies (talk) 04:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Dympies, LukeEmily is correct; we usually avoid such varna claims in these articles. You have yourself mentioned above, "Rajputs were most successful in claiming Kshatriya status", which implies that this is a claim, not universally accepted! Let's see what JJ says. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Dympies, Please see the Rajput page for more than 20 sources that contradict it. Hindu scriptures also contradict it. The very fact that the word "claim" is used in sources settles the point that it is not universally accepted. How can a mixed caste be universally accepted as Kshatriyas? Are Sagar Rajputs or Ravana Rajputs universally accepted as Kshatriyas? Show me a single source that says "{some universally accepted Brahmin caste} claim to be brahmins". That is because that is undisputed. Please do not add any castes to this varna page.LukeEmily (talk) 10:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Dympies, see The Rajputs regard themselves as descendants or members of the Kshatriya (warrior ruling) class, but they actually vary greatly in status, from princely lineages, such as the Guhilot and Kachwaha, to simple cultivators.. From here. Given more than 20+ sources on the Rajput page that show them as originated from mixture of varnas like Shudras, the sudrakamalakara referenced in oxford press calling them as Shudrasamana, can we call them undisputed Kshatriyas? Ask yourself.LukeEmily (talk) 10:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

LukeEmily, you are subtly deviating from the topic. I am not for including varna in infobox and my content doesn't say "Rajputs are Kshatriyas" or "Rajputs have a Kshatriya origin" or even "Rajputs have Kshatriya status" but it simply says "Among castes, Rajputs were most successful in attaining Kshatriya status". This is what sources say and its essentially a fact.

Suppose we are writing a wikipedia page on a race which has not finished but we know that a particular athlete has been leading in it since the beginning. His mention obviously becomes WP:DUE. I asked you to show me contradiction but you have cited Britannica page which says their status varies from princely lineage to cultivators. How does being cultivators contradict "most successful in attaining Kshatriya status"? Can't there be cultivators in Brahmin or Kshatriya communities? And you must be aware that "Sagar Rajputs" and "Ravan Rajputs" aren't considered proper Rajputs; its highly illogical on your part to cite their examples. Dympies (talk) 11:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The issue is that most sources use the word claim. And the use of the word "but" in that quote means that the source is contradicting the kshatriya claim. Do you hear sources say "Chitpavans claim to be brahmins", "Deshastha brahmins claim to be brahmins". Rajputs are a mixed caste historically. No I am not aware that Ravana Rajputs are not considered Rajputs. Who decides that? Is there a universal consensus? You are proving my point by dismissing the Ravana Rajputs. Do you see how? Some castes were explicitly classified as Kshatriyas by brahmins based on Scriptures- I can assert that from my study of sanskritization. They are probably numerically small castes that most of us are not aware of or are not interested in. Technically, any caste that has a thread ceremony today and claims Kshatriya status is kshatriya as far as the society is concerned. Bengali Kayasthas, that @Ekdalian:, knows a lot about also have a thread ceremony and claim to be kshatriyas and that is now generally accepted (EkDalian correct me if I am wrong). Historically, they are a mixture of Brahmins and kshatriyas. The bigger issue is that adding a caste name here opens a can of worms for other castes to add their own as these opinions are contradictory. And many others will try to add their caste and it will be hard to justify them. Being most successful in claiming X status is not very different from being X status. So I am not deviating. So there is a contradiction among sources. Kshatriyas were supposed to study vedas, can you name a few Rajput clans who did? As far as why cultivation is concerned , please look at the official occupation of a shudra on the shudra page. See this (sorry for the syntax, I am lazy): Ancient Indian Education: Brahmanical and Buddhist - Page 152 by Radhakumud Mookerji · 1989,Page 152 (duties of) Kshatriya were administration and war . The bow is his special attribute , as shown in a number of passages in Vedic literature. There is hardly any reference to Kshatriyas engaging in agri- culture , trade. That is why the previous quote had "but" to contradict their kshatriya claim.LukeEmily (talk) 16:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes LukeEmily, you are right! In fact, I have come across some reliable source (don't remember which one now) which stated something similar, like most scholars currently accept the Kshatriya status of Bengali Kayasthas. But I never even imagined that this might be added to this article! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 17:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@LukeEmily, why I have to repeat this again and again that my content is about "most successful claim of Kshatriya status" only? You are wrongly interpreting Britannica by making extra emphasis on "but". It doesn't contradict that its none other than Rajputs who got most success in claiming Kshatriya status (compared to all other modern day communities). Who says Kshatriya essentially means princely lineage? Vedic Kshatriyas were an entire class of people who were kings as well as lowest ranking soldiers. As far as Radhakumud Mookerji's quote is concerned, you are cherry picking. You search google books and try to find a quote to contradict me and then you portray its Raj era writer as having some special authority over the subject. Can't Kshatriyas be landowners? If they have land, it will be used for agriculture. Aren't there Brahmins who engage in agriculture? Gaur Brahmins, Maithil Brahmins, Pushkarna Brahmins all engage in agriculture. Do they become non-Brahmins? Your arguments have always been weak. You were asked to bring contradictory sources but you failed to find any to refute the fact that Rajputs are most successful in claiming Kshatriya status. As far as Ravana Rajput is concerned, you simply read its definition: "The Ravana Rajputs are descendants of Rajput men and non-Rajput women, and were not originally accepted by the Rajput community as Rajputs". They are considered half Rajputs. Dympies (talk) 18:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Just adding the content being discussed here along with citations so that readers can have a better idea of what is being supported or opposed here :

Though many communities claimed Kshatriya status, the Rajputs were most successful in attaining it. Dympies (talk) 18:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

References